COMMENTS

Posted by: Keith M | 10-Dec-2009 12:54 PM |

This is an old story. I read it a few months ago in Australian Leisure magazine.

Posted by: david kennedy | 01-Feb-2010 12:03 AM |

I studied for two years full time 30 hours / week face to face and then about 40 to sixty hours a week at home to pass a diploma of recreation fitness. I spent another year studying massage part time to gain a cert 4 in massage. I started work in a gym working with people who had little or no idea. Most had done short courses to gain accreditation, read a book and find the answers. Some had studied online and others had done a short course over a couple of weekends. I was then asked by my employer to join fitness Australia. Because I had waited more than 2 years to join after finishing my diploma they would not accept it and told me I would have to do it again. Every time I visit a gym I see people doing things under the supervision of trainers that are wrong and have the potential to coarse injury, but they all have accreditation with fitness Australia. The problem is not with the waivers or indemnity forms it is in the training provided to trainers.

Posted by: Anonymous | 02-Feb-2010 01:52 PM |

I run my own outdoor personal training business Tonezone. I have been operating for over nine years..I too have had clients that have been incorrectly assessed and trained in the gym. The point that all trainers were advised once completed the certificate four course was that refer if any question is raised to the clients ability to train. In this case the assessment on the initial application indicated prior injury. A qualified trainer would be able to generally asses weather the client falls in the "at risk" category. Once viewed as refer on...the trainer should have referred on, even if the gym did not want to do so. Upon assessment from a medical representative, the exercises in rehabilitation would have been commenced until further review from the medical professional. Then gently and progressively you would increase the repetitions to enable the full use of the knee. I have contracts with my clients and continually refuse to train the area under review until the medical professional has signed off full use of the limb. I have learnt "Cover your own backside" as when you are taken to court, quite often or not you are on your own as your industry wil not stand by you. They will use you in an example after the fact as in this case. United we stand and divided we fall

Posted by: Kristy | 03-Feb-2010 10:18 AM |

A classic case of the fact there are so many young personal trainers out there who have done a short course to get their qualification and then think that they have the knowledge and skills to be a personal trainer and give people advice on how to train properly and safely, the fact is they don't and this just shows that. I think it is to easy to get a job as a personal trainer and should be made a lot harder and have proper training before they are allowed to administor advice to someone. Been a personal trainer myself i know that in my first year i had limited experience and relied on my knowledge from my studies which is good but the more experience you have the better and i feel is safer in the long run when dealing with clients. What it comes down to it, young inexperienced trainers shouldn't be training people until they have been given the go ahead from their manager that they can safely deliver a training session.

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Posted by: patricia | 07-Oct-2009 02:53 PM |

i fully agree that having an AED should be compulsary in every gym how ever large or small. and if save just one life then it has paid for it self

Posted by: Denise | 12-Oct-2009 10:19 PM |

It is important to note that using an AED does not replace CPR. Staring CPR immediately is the best option. If an AED is available a second person should be sent to get it. The person performing CPR should not cease CPR to fetch an AED. Check with www.resus.org.au for the official Guidelines from the Australian Resuscitation Council. And keep your CPR up to date!

Posted by: Marg | 13-Oct-2009 12:00 AM |

I was recently involved in the successful revival of someone who suffered a major heart attack at the fitness centre from which I opertate my PT business. He had previously had a quadruple bypass approx 2 years ago. This was the first time I have never had to help administer major first aid of this type in 26 years in the fitness industry! This centre does not have defib equipment. Immediate DRABC, coma position, EAR + CPR were applied by a competent team of staff and some clients who fortunately were from the medical profession. An ambulance was also called immediately which took approx 12min to arrive, the whole time the CPR + EAR were continuously applied.The ambulance team upon arrival then worked for approx another 12min to stabilise the client before taking him to emergency. The 12min it took for professional help to arrive seemed like an eternity for those involved in the first aid process. We were told by the ambulance officers that the quick thinking and actions of all involved were life saving, however I feel that once CPR + EAR were initially applied the use of an AED machine would have been of great assistance. I see the points Denise has raised to be sound information from the experience of the event , and in an emergency situation if a sole operterator is involved it could be extremely hard to facilitate EAR, CPR + AED. In a fitness centre with several staff and a team environment, a defib would be a great asset, however for the small single PT operator praticality of operation at the time of a major incident may be a point to consider. I only know that in the heat of a moment such as the one we experienced recently, as much help as possible by experienced people or extra equipment is / would be a god send! I am happy to finish with news that the cient made a full recovery and is now back exercising regularly! This may be a one in a million lucky situation...AED or no AED!

Posted by: Karina | 13-Oct-2009 10:59 AM |

I absolutely support the idea of AEDs in all public places. I note you have information for St John's Ambulance there. The Queensland Ambulance Service also has a range of AEDs for sale and provides training on their use. We really are the experts in this field and will give great advice on the type of device to best suit any workplace. Let me know if you need any assistance from us in getting this organised.

Posted by: Gordon | 13-Oct-2009 05:57 PM |

We bought an AED for our small studio recently on the basis that if something does happen we will give the client every possible chance. We dealt directly with the importer and paid only $2,600 and we get the 50% Federal Government tax deduction so the price for some peace of mind isn't too high. As we have some mature age clients who we value highly it just gives a good feeling seeing the AED hanging on the wall. Just never want to use it!

Posted by: michele | 13-Oct-2009 05:57 PM |

I was recently involved in a similar situaion to Marg. however the ambulance took over 40 minutes to arrive. thankfully our centre did have a defib. we commenced cpr within 1 minute and then applied the defib. our member is alive today because of our training and the defib machine.He is also back in the gym exercising. i know i would not want to work in a centre that did not have a defib machine.

Posted by: Angela | 14-Oct-2009 11:35 AM |

The idea behind having Automated External Defibrillation (AED) Machine is great to help save peoples' lives. People are precious and a lost life when it could have been easily saved with one of these machines is a terrible thing to happen. But why is there such a big price tag on such a device - why are they so expensive - nearly $3,000? I know they are made to use on humans, have a recorded voice and include a 'heart rhythm assessment' to not shock unless a heartbeat is absent, in comparison with a 12-Volt car battery jump-starter which is about $200.00 - compared to a Defibrillator which is only 9-Volts, it is nearly 15 times the price. Furthermore, one defibrillator brand promoted in Victoria says that the machine 'usually has a use-by date expiring 2 years after manufacture'. Thus how can gyms afford to buy a new one every 2 years at this price? There needs to be more competition with another Defibrillator manufacturing company to bring the price down because this is ridiculous. It shouldn't be so expensive to save lives?

Posted by: tony | 17-Oct-2009 08:57 PM |

The effectiveness of AEDs in cardiac arrests is very controversial and of course the manufacturers promote studies biased towards their products. They are a tool that may help in around 30% of arrests that present in a shockable rythym, howver they are no substitute for effective and continuous CPR and then ongoing advanced care. Beware of biased studies and emotive arguments.

Posted by: Danielle | 21-Oct-2009 02:57 PM |

It is good to see that there is support out there for this to happen. Every year, Fitness Instructor's must complete their CPR to enable them to have current and valid registration and insurance. Every year it seems like the method for administering CPR changes, and this is a good thing because as the science improves so to do the methods for saving a life. Now we have this new peice of equipment that can save a life, and is much more effective at it than any Fitness Instructor could be with the most up to date CPR. If Fitness Instructors can learn new techniques and be tested each year for that, could not Fitness Centres equip us with the most up to date equipment to help is with our training. It would be great if the Fitness Industry took up the initiative to get AED's in all health centres to show our continued and growing support for each member's health and the health of their family and friends. If anyone is interested in learning more about how successful AED's have been here is a link http://www.health.gov.au/internet/main/publishing.nsf/Content/pacd-pub-PADDemo

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Posted by: Anonymous | 12-May-2009 08:27 AM |

Good article, hate the exercise. I think that any fitness professional is more than accountable for the safety of exercises that members/clients preform. If they are doing any that can put themselves in danger of injury then they should be told and corrected, after that its up to them to consider the consequences of what might happen if they continue.
I would not give the BNP, or any exercise that has a high injury risk, to a client. Obviously all exercises have some element of risk but ones like the BNP where the risk is almost equal to the benefit should be left out and something more suitable preformed. Leg extensions, another high risk exercise.

Posted by: Josephine | 12-May-2009 08:33 AM |

Specialising in the over 50's market I do not go near these exercises, I found the comments refreshing that not everybody agrees with the old" Tuff to be Buff" syndrome. Welcome to new ideas, thank you all for entering into these discussions..
Cheers.........Josephine!!!!

Posted by: Luke Magee | 12-May-2009 09:14 AM |

I definitely agree with Nathan, i would almost never prescribe i high risk exercise to a client. But in the realms of my own training these high risk exercises do come into play. I don't think this is contra-indicative that what goes for me doesn't go for a client. I think there is room for these exercises, but only in high experienced and advanced cases where high levels of technical supervision are being provided, especially when using free weights.

Posted by: Sam K | 12-May-2009 09:28 AM |

Shouldn't all exercise be founded in principles of well being? Exercises that potentially endanger your physical well being are against everything I believe as a trainer. This exercise is yet another hangover from the world of body building, where building size precedes common sense.

Posted by: Mario Frapiccini | 12-May-2009 10:02 AM |

Do not use it at all I do not think it provides any real benefit to the masses, i.e the danger is higher than any benefit they will get.

Posted by: Phil Raymond | 12-May-2009 10:20 AM |

Great article,I have for a long long time advised my clients why I will not have them perform this exercise.As a bodybuilder myself I feel my shoulder development is up to par with a lot of my competitors and ever since the mid 1990's when I tweaked my rotator and for the next 6 months tried to rehabilitate my injury with a lot of pain involved.
My shoulder development back then was to say in the very leas-average,where as for the past 13-14 years I have never performed this exercise again and my development has grown a lot. There are a lot of machines and alternate exercises to use rather than potentially placing my clients at risk of injury and potentially stopping the income that they so kindly provide.

Posted by: Max Rafferty | 12-May-2009 11:43 AM |

All trainers have a Duty of Care to their clients (i.e a legal responsibility based around their level of understanding). So being a “fitness professional” does make you legally accountable, and no personal trainer wants to hurt their client (I hope) and then be financial accountable for that injury. So, for the benefit of the client and the trainer’s financial situation “know thy exercise” and screen the client!

Posted by: Pete | 12-May-2009 11:58 AM |

Is it functional? ... Is the movement applicable to real life situations? It may be for some, in which case like all movements, learn it light with good form and increase load to meet your goals.
If it's not applicable or directly useful to press heavy things from behind your head try doing it in front :-)

Posted by: Dave Martin | 12-May-2009 11:59 AM |

Good read, Like Phil's comments I too have suffered in the past with Shoulder problems attributed to various training excercises including BNP. As a competitive bodybuilder in the 80's and 90's my own education was limited around Good exercise V's Bad. The last time I prescribed this exercise was 1994! and these day's there are safer alternatives to medial and posterior targeting

Posted by: David Hoffmann | 12-May-2009 12:29 PM |

When you look at the relativity of this exercise in day to day life for a client, I would not prescribe this to any of our clients as I cannot think of a movement that they will effectively carry out this movement. Again it is up to us as professionals to look at the exercises we believe will place people at risk and not prescribe them. There are many alternatives for us to use, and does Mrs Jones care if her posterior deltoid is buffed?

Posted by: Teresa Quinn | 12-May-2009 12:58 PM |

This exercise as I am aware was outlawed when I did my training back 6yrs ago so I have never used it on any of my clients. When I have seen clients using said exercise , it has always been with bad posture and technique, and I have always advised clients on it use and the risks involved and have left the decision to them .
As a personal trainer I think it is my duty to all clients to keep them safe and to inform them on any changes regarding outlawed exercises, the reasons why , and an alternative exercise. We all as trainers should be keeping ourselves updated and as an industry try to give the same advice to keep our industry a professional one.

Posted by: Brian Cooke | 12-May-2009 02:09 PM |

All shoulder press exercises involve concurrent outward rotation/abduction which produces capsular instability. Whilst BNP is the most extreme of the press options each should be preceded by some functional assessment. The old argument that BNP is the most effective option for medial and posterior deltoid recruitment surely went out with Conan. Posterior deltoid is a horizontal shoulder abductor and plays almost no role in abducting the shoulder in the frontal plane. Let's discuss something a little more divisive like vibration technology perhaps.

Posted by: Chris. | 12-May-2009 03:02 PM |

BNP always a hot topic,First Question i would ask client/instructor is there anything in your day to day activities that require you to be in a unsafe position with a weight above your head???
Weight training should be functional to meet the individuals needs.

Posted by: David Max | 12-May-2009 03:16 PM |

I think that the BNP is a very "grey zone" exercise. I personally use it with my Olympic lifters.
There is certainly no alternative when it comes to Olympic lifting.Though for most athletes, the benefits of this exercise can be produced by a mix of various exercises which are lower risk. This exercise makes me think of box squats, an exercise that should NEVER be performed without a coach present, as injuries aren't only possible but they should be expected.
Safety should always be a trainers and an athletes first concern, as strength, speed and power are all just a back or rotator cuff injury from disappearing.

Posted by: Joe Bonington | 13-May-2009 03:51 PM |

Great Subject. I agree with David Max. This exercise does have a place. As a strength and conditioning coach, it is taught in the breakdowns of "O"lifts as a straight BNP or as a "Push under" and then as a "Drop Under". Unless these groups are worked in such a way the integrity of a clients snatch can suffer. It also has cross over into any sport where a push pattern is required where the head may be forced into flexion... all codes of Rugby and all forms of grappling. For your general population... No way, not a hope

Posted by: CHRIS | 13-May-2009 06:25 PM |

I was a PT trainer (male) until i developed chronic psoaratic arthritis as a result of a serious bout of food poisoning from a restaurant 6 years ago. I am no longer a trainer as my time and considerable effort is spent on just trying to get through each day.
However, as one of the many who ditched the BNP, it is now the only exercise that maintains my ability to raise my arms above my shoulder. It is as painful as hell (due to the arthritis, not the exercise itself) but so is pressing to the front. However, the front press does not maintain my ability to raise my arms above my head no matter how much painful stretching i do and it is not long before i can no longer do this if i don't do the BNP.
Thought you all might like to know this in the context of my individual situation and the benefit of the BNP to me as opposed to the Front Press.
P.S. Celebrate your good health every day.

Posted by: mark roskell | 13-May-2009 08:43 PM |

hi,
I got certified as a personal trainer quite a few years ago (mainly so i could further my own knowledge for my training - i am a drug free powerlifter). I have had many friends come over to my place over the years and say they could never squat, or BNP (for example), because they always get injured while doing them and have been told that they are an unsafe exercise.
After 5 minutes of showing them how to do the exercise, they are doing it safely.
Every exercise has its merits, and I believe that with the right coaching / teaching, the vast majority of people can do any exercise and not get injured.
Done incorrectly, any exercise has the potential to injure [some more than others.
Regards,
Mark Roskell

Posted by: Yochum Australia | 15-May-2009 01:06 PM |

I would not give this exercise to any of my clients. Most of us deal with the normal population whom we have a duty of care towards. If we are looking at our clients as individuals with individual needs and wants then I cannot see anyone requiring BNP in their repertoire of exercises. There is a multitude of choice which we can delve into without resorting to exercises that are out of date, potential harmful, and arguably with little positive outcome. Use your imagination and the knowledge you have and are continually developing to deliver a balanced, outcome based program which meets the needs of each client no matter what their goals.

Posted by: Anonymous | 17-May-2009 09:02 PM |

Like everyone else, why put a client at risk?
A lot of bodybuilders still love it though

Posted by: Sheena | 20-May-2009 02:19 PM |

This exercise is definitely not encouraged in our gym. As others have said, the chances of the general population needing to press heavy weight behind their heads is virtually zero! Clients have made time to come exercise, so why waste it doing a non-functional exercise?

Posted by: Anonymous | 17-Jun-2009 04:14 PM |

I have used the matrix roll involving BHS it si effective hoever I would be very selevtive as to which client I woudl introduce it to.
I am more interested in the question" Does being a fitness professional make you accountable..." I am appauled at the number of "fitness professionals" who do not maintain registration or increase knowledge. A plummer MUST be licensed to work with water pipes. How is it a person who is invloved in anothers wellbeing and health DOESNT have to be licensed????

Posted by: Christine Atkins | 15-Sep-2009 03:33 PM |

I agree with Nathan 100% Cheers Chris

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Posted by: jane | 04-Feb-2009 04:37 PM |

I don't think we need an absolute ban on exercise in hot weather, but we (the fitness industry) must show leadership to our participants/clients, namely that health and safety are always foremost in our minds. We need to demonstrate, particularly to more obsessive participants, that it is okay to change or have a break from our usual exercise programs in times of illness, heat, etc. If we encourage them to exercise at normal intensity and duration despite the extreme heat (for instance, by running our classes/sessions without any modification), we are not providing this leadership. During very hot weather, I shorten my classes, take more drinks breaks, and lower the intensity. My only wish is that my gym were more proactive in guiding staff as to what to do in cases of extreme heat, rather than leaving it to the judgment of individual staff.

Posted by: Zonneveld Australia | 05-Feb-2009 10:13 AM |

I agree with Jane, I am actually just on my way out to do an outdoor session, however i know where i am going and that there are lots of massive tree's to work under with my client. I will also take extra water for my client to ensure they have plenty of fluids, plus fly spray and sunscreen to cover all issues with hot weather. With training on days like today my sessions would be more at a much lower intensity, avoiding cardio and focusing more on strength, core and flexibility training with regular breaks for stretches and fluids. Just like the wet weather the hot weather has its limitations but there is always a safe way to ensure your client have a good healthy & fun workout. However if it was anything over 35degree's i would probably take the session into air conditioned facility or try to do an extra session with that client at another time when the weather is more suitable. LIVE LONG - LIVE STRONG

Posted by: Anonymous | 05-Feb-2009 10:51 AM |

We need to regulate safe and unsafe temperatures especially in gyms that do not have air conditioning. Sometimes the heat inside is more intense than outside when you have a numbers of people sweating it out. All Indoor Cycle/RPM rooms should be air conditioned especially if it is a small space which most are. If temps get above 35-40 degrees I think classes inside without aircon should be cancelled its a big risk to push clients limits in that sort of heat.

Posted by: Anonymous | 05-Feb-2009 11:15 AM |

I have just started outdoor fitness classes for women. I have a new session starting this weekend at 7.30am on a day when it is forecast to be 42 degrees. I have had my doubts as to whether this is should go ahead - now I am really not sure and having some sort of regulation would certainly help. There is minimum shade at the park and my clients are unfit with most having not exercised in the last 12 months due to having children. Any thoughts on whether this should be postponed or if I should just do a low intensity class?

Posted by: Anonymous | 05-Feb-2009 12:44 PM |

People are going to hate this reply but here goes! All of the above comments are totally correct…to a point. I agree that for the majority of “group exercise” participants a trainer should modify a class to suit the conditions, this is just common sense. However, I do not agree that this should be the norm. Unfortunately it is so easy to become a personal trainer that we as a fitness industry have a lot of totally inept trainers. To say that you need to be careful in extreme heat is obvious but to say that sessions should avoid cardio is very misguided. I would suggest that anyone that would suggest basing a session in extreme heat around strength training instead of cardio has never completed their strength training intensely enough. The guiding factor when training in any condition, hot or cold, should be heart rate and RPE. (With obvious exceptions) Taking an athlete that is expected to play their sport in open air in 40 plus degree heat into an air conditioned room to train is plain idiotic and for anyone to suggest such a thing would suggest that you don’t train a great deal of athletes, at least not successful ones! My aim here is not to criticise anyone above but it does highlight how ridiculously easy it is to become a personal trainer. Anyone that has the money can do a course and get qualified and all they have to do to stay qualified is to attend a conference and hide in the back of the room and receive their CEC’s. These people will never get found out if they only train sedentary individuals and act as a lap dog standing next to their clients as they walk on a treadmill. Personality and interaction is massively important to becoming a successful trainer but don’t let your knowledge slip, providing you had it in the first place!

Posted by: Anonymous | 05-Feb-2009 01:50 PM |

In response to Anonymous query about starting your outdoor training session: Great question, and great to hear that you’re asking for advice when you’re unsure. While it should definitely be a case of “better safe than sorry” you might want to consider that the forecast 42 degrees certainly wouldn’t occur until around mid-day, but will 7.30am still be too hot to train? Can you get a projection of the expected temperature for the time you plan to train? A high of 40’s might have a lower end of 20’s which would still be accepted training conditions. One of the reasons that we can’t have one specific regulation is that, like most aspects of fitness, one size definitely doesn’t suit all. A highly conditioned athlete would most likely be acclimatised to the higher temperatures- much more than, say, a client who hasn’t exercised much in the past 12 months. Rather than cancelling the class, you could consider changing the location to include more shade or even move it indoors. If this is not possible and the conditions remain risky, I would suggest that you seriously consider re-scheduling it. It’s simply not worth the threat to your clients and your business. For further information, you might want to read http://www.sma.org.au/information/preventing_heat_illness_in_sport_policy.asp Thanks for your comments!

Posted by: vic country | 05-Feb-2009 03:49 PM |

Good afternoon, (even if it is 41 degrees and I'm about to take aqua outside (crazy I know) I believe that you don't have to avoid training, cardio or strength, on a hot day just lessen the intensity. I take boxing classes outside in 38-40 degree heat (under shade/hasn't been below 38 degrees for at least 3 weeks) It is more pleasant than in our evap air conditioned gym because it is harder to breathe inside. I participate in the class to gauge the intensity. We have coped at this temperature for the last three weeks without any problem at all (less intensity obviously). I watch my participants carefully and a good trainer should be able to tell if anyone is not coping. Hats, sunscreen, frequeunt drink breaks etc etc are common sense. PS. anonymous. If you start an email, people are going to hate this reply, wait and re-read your email before pressing the submit button, but I guess that's why your anonymous. You can't write "My aim is not to critisise" and then rant about how unqualified, inept, idiotic, unsuccessful, unknowledgable and ridiculous the trainers are. I believe you took their emails out of context. I think we are talking about general classes not elite athletes although yours is a valid point, albeit they are also vunerable to heat stroke. I totally agree that personality and interaction skills are extremely important to be a good trainer. This of course extends to professionalism which would include not making generalised comments about colleagues whose qualifications and expertise are unknown. PS I have no idea who the above blogs have come from

Posted by: C-Change Training Studio | 05-Feb-2009 04:21 PM |

I believe that it is to hard to monitor what you clients do during the day prior to attending the gym, they could have been sitting outdoors for the whole day making them extremely dehydrated. Although there are no regulations in regard to this articles state that on days of extreme heat you should drink a small amount of fluid every ten minutes prior to and during exercise. I believe there is a duty of care and it is not safe for someone to do for example a cycle class for an hour on day of 40 +. We are in a position as a small studio to closely monitor our clients but I think that there is not many times that the temperature exceeds 40 and the safest conclusion would be to not risk it. I have added a note to our studio procedures that states what we do on these hot days. I am all for regulations and research into this matter.

Posted by: Mimi | 05-Feb-2009 08:12 PM |

I have been teaching my outdoor classes / clients/ outdoor aqua in this extreme heat over the last 3 weeks and yes it's challenging for us as fitness leaders and for the clients. I gues it all comes down to the individual - ask questions such as adequate fluid intake prior to exercise & offer them an out. I think some clients are afraid to cancel with short notice - which may result in financial loss over their own health. I would prefer to lose income than risk a person's health. I suffered heat stroke during a race in Canberra a few years ago, pushing myself to cross that finish line regardless & I tell you it was quick & scary.. I had to have a drip & a night in hospital to rehydrate. You do not want to be in that position! We just need to be sensible.

Posted by: Jane | 08-Feb-2009 10:31 PM |

To not-attributed who said: "The guiding factor when training in any condition, hot or cold, should be heart rate and RPE. (With obvious exceptions) Taking an athlete that is expected to play their sport in open air in 40 plus degree heat into an air conditioned room to train is plain idiotic and for anyone to suggest such a thing would suggest that you don’t train a great deal of athletes, at least not successful ones!" Just for your information, I don't undertake sport-specific training, I teach group fitness classes at the Y. I therefore operate under the assumption that people are NOT acclimatised to training in the heat, are NOT wearing heart rate monitors (and even if they were, I would not be in a position to individually assess their intensity), and most certainly DO NOT need to continue their ordinary exercise regime under such extreme conditions. I should also note that while RPE is a useful tool for measuring intensity (and one I use in my classes a lot), ultimately, it is my responsibility to teach a class that is safe, not to rely totally on my participants' ability to self-select an appropriate intensity.

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